thenearshore | 39 - Where Do We Stand?

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39 - Where Do We Stand?

Who: Everyone!
What: Help the Heavens investigate what remains of the cult and their compound
When: May 2
Where: A converted farm on the rural edge of the Tokyo metro area
Summary: Characters can discuss what they know about the cult, choose how much or how little they tell the Heavens' representative Suijin, and help make decisions about where to go from here.

This place was once a farm, then rebuilt into a compound with a big central building, heavy concrete walls and plenty of outdoor spaces for ritual magic. Now, the rooftop has caved in, and the main floor has collapsed as well, leaving a basement open to the skies above. All around, police tape from a local Near Shore department has quarantined off the area. Amaterasu's shinki, in cooperation with those from Suijin, Fuujin, and Raijin have managed to take shifts warning miscreants and the police away from the area, but left the tape to help with those efforts. Just beyond the tape, they've now put up Borderlines to safely guard against ayakashi for the duration of this meeting, but they're pretty far out of earshot and very focused.

Letter of Invitation

the digital letter that Amaterasu sent out

Early Arrival

There's a set time that Suijin will arrive - Noon - but as everyone is encouraged to come early, it is possible you are one of the first or last to arrive among the "early" crowd. How did you get there? Was it by stealth or impossible to miss, even by any Near Shore people in the area?

Topics of Discussion

Now is your chance to discuss with your fellows what you know, don't know, wish you knew, etc. about the cult or their compound. Do your characters think they are still being spied on by Heavens and want to hold back, or are they reasonably confident speaking out with the protecting shinki so far away? At the very least, none of the shinki are making very obvious attempts to return to the compound itself. For the very paranoid, there are little alcoves out of visual range or a small room that still has a door on it, albeit not a ceiling.

Suijin's Arrival

Suijin arrives

via OOC post

We will run this similar to how we ran the Compound's Second Fight: there will be an opportunity for Suijin and/or her shinki to speak, then characters will be given free reign to respond to her and amongst themselves for a period of time. Then, another "round" will begin with Suijin and/or her shinki's responses to the characters. This structure allows for characters to still react with late comments or reactions to anything being said, or jump in whenever they feel comfortable speaking up.

In Summary:

Talk amongst yourselves before Suijin arrives
Check out the damage inflicted on the Compound
Discuss next steps with Suijin, if you would like
Have fun~

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

"While I was investigating Mitsui Ryou, after socializing with him a few times, he was quick to try to recruit me for what he called a new religion. He wasn't able to give a name to the religion, but he was clear about the religion's goal: to dethrone the old gods and put gods that would care into power. He said gods were jealous of competition and spoke favorably of the new gods."

Ginia pauses, phone tapping against her chin before she resumes typing, a new addition to her message played.

"Given their attacks against our shrines and now the dolls, I would say we're considered part of the old gods rather than the new."

Edited 2019-04-06 04:53 (UTC)

"So what all did he tell you about his religion's beef with the old gods?" Bakugou studies her. "Or what kind of new gods they want? Is it as simple as them wanting to make themselves the new gods? 'Cause that's usually how that shit goes."

While Ginia knows Bakugou understands sign language, to keep everyone in the loop, she remains on her phone.

"Of Ryou personally, I never got the impression he wanted to be a god personally. I don't know if that's the same for Takeru or any of the higher members. I always felt he was a salaryman that felt like he wasn't getting what was due to him. Not enough respect in work, not enough attention in his personal life, not enough money from his job. Instead of any personal fault, it must be the fault of an uncaring god.

"I imagine that sense of disillusionment is common among some of the lower cult members. In Ryou's case, he was also dabbling in magic experiments and the cult promised to train him and teach him how to protect himself from things like ayakashi."

It's maybe how a lot of people were lured in or even scouted out. Seek those with some magic potential, use them for the cult's gain. Are there some blaming ayakashi or uncaring gods for the way their life turned out instead of making personal changes? Sure, probably, and that makes it all the easier for the higher-members to exploit.

Bakugou doesn't question her decision; he understands what she's doing.

"I'd guess it's not too far a stretch from wanting to have a god's ear for your problems, and wanting to be a god yourself. It all comes from thinking gods can and should magically fix every damn thing in your life that isn't perfect." Bakugou snorts quietly, looking away. "But yeah, whether or not he might want to, it might not be something the cult's promising anybody. Either they might not be able to do it anyhow, or they might be saving that particular honor for people higher up on the food chain than Mr. Discontent Japanese Salaryman."

"I cannot speak to whether he did receive the training promised to him. I do believe he might have had some magic potential as he remembered who I was when most normal humans would have forgotten."

Might have even given him quite the shock if she'd run him down with Shun during the festival. Ginia frowns slightly, phone coming to rest against her chin. She wouldn't say she's any more favorable to him, but he has proven to be a little more pitiable than she'd allowed him earlier.

"It is clear the cult consists of people with magic potential given the array of traps found here. Some like Imai Takeru certainly have their vision for the world too. My question is then what? Suppose they do overthrow Heaven and all of us up here, put in new gods. What is the next step for everyone on the Near Shore? Who really gets to rule? Who's going to be the damn bastard from Heaven that steps out of the shadows and was running things all along?"

"I want to know who's training them," Bakugou growls. "I get the feeling that the kind of magic they're doing, the kind of rituals they're performing - that's not just something you find in a book at your local library. One of the best arguments for why there's probably a traitor in the heavens somewhere is just asking how the cult got their hands on the knowledge they'd need to pull the shit they've been pulling. Especially their shiny new trick for making new gods - you can't tell me that didn't come to them straight on a pipeline from the Far Shore itself. I wanna know who's turning the valve."

Bakugou surveys the ruins briefly, nostrils flaring. "As for what their ultimate plan is, who the fuck knows. I bet most of them don't even know. I'm betting the top of the cult's chain of command doesn't tell those below them any more than they need to know...or, if they do, who knows if it's true. When you've got an insane scheme to overthrow the gods in heaven, it's usually not 'cause you want to install a fair democracy of the common people. That's just what you tell the common people to get them to go to war for you, so you can climb a mountain of their bodies to your throne."

"The knowledge of how to make new gods isn't necessarily leaked from Heaven. The concept of creating gods, or kami is deeply rooted into Shinto beliefs. A god that inhabits a stream or river and keeps it pure, a god that inhabits a pair of sewing scissors passed down from generation to generation, these are ideas already rooted in Japanese culture. I remember seeing books on Shinto in households of the cultists so some were doing their research. As for controlling a god..."

As her phone finishes playing her message, Ginia gives a small waggle of her hand. There are rituals for for keeping a god happy, how to give offerings, how to build a shrine and stay in their favor, all things easily researched. But it's not quite controlling a god in the same way Votelli and Sotero seem to be.

"Magic or spiritual sensitivity aren't even unnecessarily impossible, but the level and power strikes me as unusual. I believe a mole from Heaven might have helped there, especially with all the traps designed to snare and drain energy from us. However, magic isn't my specialty so I'll leave any theorizing there to the experts.

"Whoever is really running things, I think we need to prepare for something big once the cult is taken care of or they realize they aren't getting the results they want through the cult."

Bakugou tries not to roll his eyes, because to be fair to Ginia, she has no way of having known this already...but it's still tedious to listen to her explaining this to him. "I am Japanese," he says impatiently, once her phone finishes. (Not like there'd have been a point interrupting it.) "But you missed two important points there, right?" He ticks them off on his fingers. "One, if these new gods are kami in the Shinto style, it should be easy enough to create them. Humans do that shit all the time. We ought to be overrun with them at this point, if all the cult has to do is focus belief to create a god. Two, you forgot that Shinto beliefs say that humans become kami when they die...which isn't how shit works in the Far Shore. The spirits that get tapped to become shinki are dead humans, right? They sure as hell aren't kami. So I'd say that how things work here in this world and how things work under Shinto beliefs don't exactly match up. Maybe some rules apply and some rules don't, but clearly which ones do or don't is arbitrary, so I dunno what we're supposed to get from that. We obviously can't just go by how Shinto says things work."

He folds his arms, scowling at the ground. "If the cult gets taken out...then yeah, maybe there'll be some fireworks in the heavens. How long do you think that cult took to set up? To get to a point that they're a legit threat to the heavens? This fucker's been playing a long game. They've probably got some fallback plan already in place...maybe more than one."

Ginia winces at her gaff. She didn't know, but still, oof. She waits for him to finish before beginning with a signed, "Sorry. That was rude of me."

"I wonder if there are rules that determine whether a human becomes a kami, a shinki, or something else when they die." It's the most dangerous point for a shinki to think on of the things Bakugou brought up, but it's one Ginia can't help but consider. If every single person who died became a shinki, there'd be far more shinki around. In fact, there'd be a lot more elderly shinki overall. It's also questionable where shinki go after dying (the afterlife? Nothingness?), but it's generally accepted there is an afterlife humans go to. So what is the determining factor? What happens on death to determine where one goes? If shinki are commonly brought into form as wandering souls, what sends the souls adrift?

Ginia forcibly pulls away from that train of thought, the lingering question of how she died the next one at the station. It's not a question she can ask her gods, not with any other shinki around, it's not even a question she's sure she wants an answer to. Her hand presses against her mouth as she forces herself to think back on the problem of the cult.

"There are plenty of loose ends that would be worth connecting and looking into again. The demon, the department store. There are still too many questions around those."

Bakugou shrugs. "You didn't know." Even for Bakugou, not everything is worth getting pissed off about. Besides, he knows he doesn't exactly look like a stereotypical Japanese teenager, and that he acts like the furthest thing from it. It'd be impressive if Ginia had pinned him.

"We don't know enough," Bakugou reiterates, rather irritably. He doesn't like that this is the case, but it's even more frustrating to build theories based on shaky or nonexistent foundations that won't hold up. Better to accept that the foundation needs more work, and go put in that work, than to invest too much in something hopelessly flimsy. "We don't even know if how the cult are creating gods has anything to do with Shinto practices, or if it's more magical ritual bullshit like we've already seen them do for other things. So until we confirm there's any connection at all, there's no point speculating about it. None of the other stunts the cult have pulled, and none of the magic they've used, exactly ties into Shinto practices, either."

He folds his arms, eyes fixed on the ground for a moment as he thinks. "The department store was before my time. I thought I heard it burned down or something. Is there anything even left to investigate?"

If there are too many things they don't know about and can only theorize around, it's best to focus on what few facts they have.

"It was before my time too, but I've talked to people who were around when it happened. Found evidence some of the cultists were a part of that too. But there's a company involved that's a little suspicious. Fujisaki. They were responsible for poisoned chocolates and connected to flyers declaring 'Down with Heaven.' Then a department store they're supposed to open a grocery store in burns down. Except the people at Fujisaki company say they were never involved and someone falsely used their name.

"So what is so important about that company or name? Why use that name instead of using another name or something fake?"

[Shun doesn't have too much to add to what's already been said, especially the part about them being considered part of the old gods. He'd noticed that from the start, and it had always seemed odd.]

Considering how long the cult has been operating, and the fact that we first encountered them behind those "down with Amaterasu" flyers that were going around in the first months after the new gods arrive, it's pretty obvious they intend to overthrow the Heavens. They've also managed to get gods under their control, so it looks like they not only want to put new gods into power, but put new gods in who take commands from the cult's higher-ups.

[First with Votelli, now with Talos - there had been a pattern of gods deferring to the orders of high-ranking cult members.] They've been treating us as part of the old gods since the start, so their focus with "new gods" seems to really be entirely new gods who haven't encountered the Heavens before at all. Probably because they're easier to try and control.

That seems like a reasonable conclusion...but then how does that explain whatever process began bringing new gods here? Do you think it was unrelated to them? And if it is related to them...why didn't they establish contact with us, try to sway us?

I suppose they may have come to the conclusion that gods they made themselves, like Sotero and Votelli, might be more biddable than people with their own former lives and pre-existing personalities...and if one assumes that Sotero and Votelli, as unknown gods, can only exist through the cult's belief in them, then they are rather held hostage to the cult's whims. But how did we start being brought in to begin with? And what made the cult change their minds about us, to go with a homegrown option instead?

I suppose one of the biggest questions is why they haven't tried reaching out to us even now, considering the growing hostility between the new and the old gods. We might not be the pliant puppets they're looking for, but they could probably find new gods and shinki with no love lost for the old gods and the heavens if they cared to look.

It's hard to tell, at this point. [Which Shun absolutely sounds a little irritated with. It's one of those things that's been a big question since they arrived, but they've never seemed to get any closer to an answer.] If it isn't related to them, then why those dolls existed and why they're so connected to us is an even bigger question. But you're right that if they knew we were supposed to be here, you'd think they would have tried to sway us. I've wondered why they never bothered to since the start.

[From the cherry blossom fire onwards, they'd never seemed to bother much with collateral damage. It had set most of the new gods against them from the start, which to Shun had always seemed to be completely counterproductive.]

Even if they wanted us to form our own opinions on the Heavens and create a divide ourselves, setting themselves as our enemies from the start means we'd be less likely to do what suited them if we came into power. So I'm wondering what the hell they're thinking just as much as you at this point.

It does seem pretty illogical! Of course, they could be acting irrationally...but it does make you wonder if we're simply missing a big piece of the puzzle that would help all the others make sense, too.

Do you suppose they want to cause enough unrest and destruction in the heavens that we all turn on each other and weaken ourselves, in order for their own created gods to step in more easily? That's the only hypothesis I can come up with...but it's pretty weak, I'm afraid. I'm not sure anything could weaken established gods - even us new gods - to the point where gods with such niche pockets of belief such as Votelli or Sotero could be in any position to usurp. After all, they only have the cult members as worshipers. Averruncus is quite a minor god from a dead civilization, but even I have more followers than Votelli or Sotero could. It's not likely any of us could be weakened, even in some kind of heavenly civil war, to the point where the cult's personally created gods could overcome us.

If there was some way for them to incarnate Sotero or Votelli, or a god like them, into an old god's former position, though...such as the way we've been incarnating into positions in our respective pantheons...then perhaps their ultimate goal is to somehow cause enough unrest to lead to a death in one of the major old gods. Amaterasu herself would obviously be the most useful, in that case. She dies, her position is vacant...and instead of the Amaterasu we know reincarnating, one of the cult's homegrown gods reincarnates as her, with all her powers, followers, and shinki now at the cult's disposal.

But that assumes they have any way of doing that, and there's no evidence for it. It seems like just about everyone who's incarnated as a god so far had a life before coming here...and we don't even have any hard proof the cult is responsible for that much. It's a lot of conjecture...

Actually...now that I come to think of it, do we have any actual proof that hasn't already happened? Assuming it were possible, and considering that adult gods revert to children when they reincarnate...would the heavens be able to tell if the Amaterasu that reincarnated was still the same person as she was when she'd died...?

It's definitely a stretch, but it's a thought that struck me just now...but I guess it mostly proves just how little we really know for sure, doesn't it?

[Listening in between her own conversations, Ginia startles a little as she considers Komaeda's theory. It's certainly one that ties everything in well and would be the easiest way for the cult to seize power. It's also a long con, a risky one if the god doesn't grow up looking like Amaterasu's predecessors.

There are a few things that do break the theory, but Ginia isn't entirely certain on those points either. She moves closer to the conversation, typing quickly on her phone and having a message ready to play.]

That is a good theory. A stretch, but not completely impossible either. I see a potential snag, but also one I'm not sure about.

When an old god dies or disappears, all their shinki keep their name. If a god takes her place as a new reincarnation, would they still be able to control her shinki or would she be considered a new god? Her exemplar has been seen in person and in her vessel form so we know her name can still be called.

[It's definitely a thought, though Shun wouldn't be surprised if there were other alternatives to it either. He frowns a little at the point Ginia raises, too.]

I know when new gods have died and come back, their shinki have kept their names, but nobody seems to have inherited shinki from a previous incarnation. What is possible even with that, though, is that if one of her shinki was working with the cult, even if she reincarnated as herself, she could be a mouthpiece for their beliefs. Raise her with them, and so on.

The problem with that, though, is why would they be trying to hard to unseat Amaterasu if she was already under their control?

Ah, that's true...I hadn't considered how shinki would factor in. Mind you, to be able to usurp Amaterasu's place with all her shinki at the usurper's disposal would be incredibly valuable to someone if they could pull it off...but I recognize it's a completely baseless hypothesis that anyone could actually do that, and I've got no proof whatsoever. It simply occurred to me that the gods created by the cult all seem to be young - the girl we saw who threw herself into the crystal was a teenager; I wonder if they'd created her quite some time ago? - and, of course, Amaterasu is a child as well. And the strange attitudes of the heavens, not to mention the question of the traitor, would all have easy answers if Amaterasu herself was working with the cult behind the scenes...but then, as you say, why would they be working against her if she was one of them?

But then that cuts both ways, right? If they were trying to turn her into a mouthpiece for them, or manipulating her in some way, it'd be equally pointless for them to try to unseat her.

Anyway, without any evidence to prove my theory's even possible, I guess there's no point in considering it further. I do think my theory that perhaps incarnating new gods into old positions has some merit to it, though...although as far as I know, none of us have inherited shinki or followers when we stepped into our new roles, so how useful that actually is to the cult is questionable. What's the point of putting one of their own gods into the role of, say, Hades, if their new god doesn't have any more power or followers than before? Oh, we have limited power over the aspects of our godly domains, but that's a lot of trouble to go to just for that. At best, it could be so that their homegrown gods could start gaining followers and power under a god's identity that's already a household name - I expect it's hard to round up followers for Sotero and Votelli, and followers are crucial to a god's power. But again, is that worth the effort they're going to?

That's why I think that, even if they can't usurp the followers and shinki an established god already has, that might be what they're ultimately aiming to achieve. We know that new gods are incarnating into old gods' positions - we're the proof - and it seems reasonable to think the cult's responsible. But obviously, judging from the way it's been working, they haven't exactly nailed down the process. So maybe we were the early test runs, flawed experiments. In terms of what would be most beneficial to the cult if they could pull it off...then my theory seems like something they might be aiming for.

That Amaterasu is somehow under the control of the cult or the person using the cult is an idea to keep in mind. However, I agree with focusing on incarnating new gods into old positions as a theory. Because while it doesn't only speak to gods but everyone brought here as a whole. After all, shinki can become gods and vice-versa.

Both of you have been around longer than I have. Do either of you know anything about what status a shinki turned god has in terms of power and status? Does their shrine on the Near Shore come out of nowhere, or was it always there but in attendance of another? Because it's possible part of the cult's problem was they weren't able to incarnate new gods consistently. If some were ending up as shinki instead of the gods they wanted, that would be a problem too.

[Ginia pauses and taps her phone against her hand as she considers what she knows and has seen about the cult.]

Though perhaps that isn't right either. They have two sets of dolls after all. Though perhaps making dolls based on shinki was something that spun off as a result?

I do know that Talos - the one who jumped into the crystal - had only recently gained a shinki, but that doesn't guarantee that she's a recently made god, since as far as I know, Votelli and Sotero didn't have shinki of their own. [It could just be the cult deciding to change their methods in the wake of those two straying, or even the woman from that cultist branch having different methods to "Sensei" handling his own gods.

As for shinki turned gods, Shun shrugs.] They can't have that much difference in status, because Hakkai is a God of Fortune and he started off as a shinki. And it's obviously possible for shinki-turned-gods to get similar status in a similar time than people who were just gods, because he can't have been here any more than a month or two longer than me, but we became Gods of Fortune at the same time. [A matter of a month or two really isn't a big deal, in the grand scheme of things.] I don't know that their shrines work any differently, either, so I think it depends on what god they are.

[There are definitely some people here who've "inherited" shrines, but there are other gods who don't seem to have existed in this world prior whose shrines must have appeared or been created with their arrival.]

Talos? [Komaeda looks surprised.] I suppose that means her shinki is cooperating with us...or talking to someone, at least. [He tilts his head.] I haven't heard anything about what her shinki has had to say...in fact, I don't even know what's happened to that shinki. I nearly passed out after that battle, I'm afraid...perhaps you could fill me in?

I'm sorry for derailing the conversation with such a selfish request...but it seems like we don't know enough to come to any solid conclusions about the other things in any case...

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

39 - Where Do We Stand?

Topic: What are the motives of the cult? What are they trying to achieve?

OTA - threadjacking welcome

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